Comments on Scifi Media: Fantasy Cliches And Why I Want To Kill Them

When Terry Brooks first published his Sword of Sha...

2009-08-27T17:06:59.571-07:00

When Terry Brooks first published his Sword of Shannara novel, it received a lot of criticism from some people claiming that he had ripped off Tolkien and used far too many "fantasy cliches".

The author of the science fiction novel Dune, Frank Herbert, defended Brooks, saying:

"Don't fault Brooks for entering the world of letters through the Tolkien door. Every writer owes a similar debt to those who have come before. Some will admit it. Tolkien's debt was equally obvious. The classical myth structure is deeply embedded in Western society.

That's why you should not be surprised at finding these elements in The Sword of Shannara. Yes, you will find here the young prince in search of his grail; the secretpowers of nature; the magician; the wise old man; the witch mother; the malignant threat from a sorcerer; the holy talisman; the virgin queen; the fool, and all of the other Arthurian trappings.

What Brooks has done is to present a marvelous exposition of why the idea is not the story. Because of the popular assumption (which assumes mythic proportions of its own) that ideas form 99 percent of a story, writers are plagued by that foolish question, “Where do you get your ideas?” Brooks demonstrates that it doesn't matter where you get the idea; what matters is that you tell a rousing story."

Don't worry about your ideas not being original. Worry about your story being good.

Readers will forgive a lack of originality as long as a story is entertaining, compelling, and interesting.

This is really, really old, but it makes me very, ...

2009-06-26T11:41:03.840-07:00

This is really, really old, but it makes me very, very happy.
That's all.

hi, i just read this, and I agree with you on some...

2009-03-29T04:49:00.000-07:00

hi, i just read this, and I agree with you on some things, but the thing is, if you have a cliche and you do the opposite of it, sometimes it can be even worse than the cliche itself. people want to read fantasy, and if fantasy means cliches, why don't we just let them get on with it? people want to write it and people want to read it. it doesn't really matter about the cliches as long as you can put your own spin on things. i agree we dont want to read LOTR copies all the time, but some of the best fantasy authors have put their own ideas in too, as well as the cliches which makes it unique. so the cliches don't really matter anymore.

I think there is alot of creative potential in sub...

2009-03-04T22:01:00.000-08:00

I think there is alot of creative potential in subverting cliche rather than avoiding it. As was stated above to be truly original is as arduous as it is unlikely; but to take a cliche and look at it from a completely different angle you can keep a tale familiar enough to be palatable while giving it new life.

I agree with some things and disagree with others....

2008-11-22T20:16:00.000-08:00

I agree with some things and disagree with others. For instance, if you live in America you were raised in the Western tradition. The roots of of our laws, thinking and government can all be traced to Greece at the very least, continuing through Mycenaea and Rome to England and then America. It is almost impossible to imagine a completely new system outside of our own simply because, well, it is our own. And our system took thousands of years to get to this point. I seriously doubt even the most capable of fantasy authors could create a totally new system in a few months.

The idea about racial determinism is interesting, but flawed. If you are taking it that far, why would they even be in competition. There is more to self-aware life than evolution. There's cultural anthropology. Fantasy from Tolkein has achieved this unique ethnodiversity that works simply because it is familiar. Pushing the envelope is well and good, but even the most interesting novels and games use these cliches. And to tell the truth, it has been ages since I've read a book whose species are so cliched.

And you attack only one cliche regarding characterization. How come there is no literature in novels? How come no one has ever read a book containing these cliches? How come your wise sage doesn't realize he is typifying the "wise sage"?

I'm sorry you are so disenchanted with fantasy, but you have to take the cliche with the originality. Perhaps you need to read an author who is skilled at wielding cliches and originality. Diana Wynne Jones is an amazing author. The Dark Lord of Derkholm and Year of the Griffin both poke fun at fantasy cliches, but she does it with love.

Just think about this- do you want to read a book about medieval squalor in which your farm boy never rises above squalor because an author decides to forgo cliches and accurately represent feudal systems. The farm boy then goes on to die of dysentery or flu or, what the hay, a nice case of bubonic plague.

I've responded to your post on a point-by-point ba...

2008-09-22T19:15:00.000-07:00

I've responded to your post on a point-by-point basis here --> http://peter1968.livejournal.com/89046.html

In the main, I agree with you.

Here's one to add. Why does every other female her...

2008-07-27T20:24:00.000-07:00

Here's one to add. Why does every other female heroine/antagonist have to have been sexually abused to justify her hatred of men and her subsequent ruthless behavior? Why???

"The wise gentle authority figure is pure fiction....

2008-04-20T12:46:00.000-07:00

"The wise gentle authority figure is pure fiction."

Maybe you should read up on Marcus Aurelius. He wasn't a saint by our standards, perhaps; but compared to the standards of his times, he certainly was more moral and conscientious than the vast majority of his countrymen.

"Why this need for the epic in every single novel/series? Just laziness to me."

The reason is not laziness on the part of authors. The reason is because Epic is what publishers buy.

Not to say you don't have some good points - Star Wars and it's galaxy of trillions but only one family matters just makes me gag.

Sounds like the author needs to get out of D&D gam...

2008-04-16T00:03:00.000-07:00

Sounds like the author needs to get out of D&D games, and read more.

I've seen many of those tropes in D&D, but fantasy writers are on a whole different level, and it's more than vaguely insulting to people working in the field to have them painted with such a broad brush, on so many points.

- Etarnon

Hey.While I gotta say I'm also tired of the same o...

2008-04-08T21:11:00.000-07:00

Hey.

While I gotta say I'm also tired of the same old--I refuse to read something fantasy now without recommendation--I also think you're being a bit excessive. I'd have to say that the number one cliche would be the determined avoidance of cliche. I have to piggy-back off of the C. S. Lewis quote there and say this: you can only be original if you're not trying to be.

Next, not all monarchs are bad. Alfred the Great was a good one, but there were others. Few, but some. And the Machiovellian politics are a Renaissance idea, and only apply to Absolute Rulers. The early ones required some level of popularity. You're commiting the sort of generalization you're condemning.

Further, the most spectacular failures I have seen are the ones where people make the worlds from scratch. Absolutely spectacular. Don't do it.

Finally, unless you've really studied or participated in a non-European tradition for years, or are of a non-European tradition originally, I wouldn't suggest trying to write outside of it. Take a real tradition and work out of it, adding your own personal flairs and spins. This works best.

However, I'll agree with you on the rest of it. Biological determinism and royal bloodlines are getting tiresome indeed.

Peace,

English Clergyman

"Since your ideas of fantasy are so firm, why not ...

2008-03-27T11:31:00.000-07:00

"Since your ideas of fantasy are so firm, why not write one yourself?"

"So get down of your high horse; if you want to read a cliche-free stort, write it yourself."

A few things-
First, I love Google. Hence why I'm here. I was actually searching for a complete list of the cliches in Eragon, but then it just kept trying to sell me the book and I realized that he's so popular that no one will dare to do it. So I searched the cliches in general to find a list that fit him. (Not hard. At all.)

Second, look at the quotes from the replies here that I've listed above. I've done this, made a world from scratch, done a book on it, compared it to several books to make sure it's not totally Paolini-esque. However, editors actually rejected it because of the infamous "it's good, but would anyone read it?" reasoning. I didn't even mention that I was a teenager. It's not formulaic like people have come to expect, so the editors are afraid that people won't be interested in picking it up. Hence, it's hard to get books published in the first place, let alone ORIGINAL works. Cliched works are proven to be just what the reader ordered, because they've sold so well in the past.

"I want to be remembered for a story that even adults can enjoy. I've also tooken up your challenge you've written above. I have two books full of world-building information for my plot."

I salute you. Here's hoping that you get a novel or two of it published.

-Shadow

Write what you enjoy, write the book that you want...

2008-01-05T16:07:00.000-08:00

Write what you enjoy, write the book that you want to read and turn a blind eye to this bloody list of cliches. As C.S. Lewis once said, you shouldn't give a darn about being original. 9 times out 10 when you just set out to tell the truth, you end up being original anyway.

I think this list of cliches is, in and of its self, cliched. Every fantasy writer has heard it a thousand times and still new books are being produced, containing a few of these cliches, and are wonderful, rich, intelligent stories. So get down of your high horse; if you want to read a cliche-free stort, write it yourself.

Dude, i agree. A whole lot of modern fantasy is ju...

2007-11-29T22:43:00.000-08:00

Dude, i agree. A whole lot of modern fantasy is just a reproduction of the same well-worn (mostly tolkienesque) cliches. Since your ideas of fantasy are so firm, why not write one yourself?

Still, about dictatorship and monarchy, although I HATE it, there HAVE been good-guy monarchs (if you doubt this check up King Alfred the Great, British king who saved Britain from Norse invaders, introduced demi-democratic regional governments and made the ability to read accessable to ALL Englishmen, noble or not).

And if you're searching for something UTTERLY UN-DERIVATIVE, check out IAN IRVINE'S 'THE VIEW FROM THE MIRROR QUARTET' (i think that's what it's called.

Read WARHAMMER Fantasy and WARHAMMER 40K, and you ...

2007-05-12T03:46:00.000-07:00

Read WARHAMMER Fantasy and WARHAMMER 40K, and you shall be enlightened.

Write your own book, if you think you can do better and see how well it sells. Don't be lazy, go on, do it. ;)

Reading what you have written has helped me in man...

2007-03-09T19:18:00.000-08:00

Reading what you have written has helped me in many ways you wouldn't think possible. I love the fantasy world so I want to embrace it, or am atleast trying to. I will make sure to try and keep as much cliche's out of my fantasy as possible. I don't want to turn out like Christopher Paolini and just get the recognition because I was young. (I want to be rich like him of course! I would love to have a video game and a movie, but then that would all be very overwhelming...) I want to be remembered for a story that even adults can enjoy. I've also tooken up your challenge you've written above. I have two books full of world-building information for my plot.

I've always though that if I wrote about elves and dwarves that it was plagiarism. I'm happy that my brain is so stuck on this. It refrains me from ever writing a tolkien-ish story. Maybe if more people who strongly don't believe in plagiarism thought this, there wouldn't be so many tolkien wannabe's.

~WritergurlLW

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2007-02-17T08:17:00.000-08:00

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exactly the peeves i have with fantasy. just typed...

2007-01-29T22:15:00.000-08:00

exactly the peeves i have with fantasy. just typed.
Should you find yourself in want of something different, check out China Mieville. Gaslamp fantasy/Steampunk, but very, very different.

Hi, I found your blog via google by accident and h...

2007-01-29T11:37:00.000-08:00

Hi,
I found your blog via google by accident and have to admit that youve a really interesting blog :-)
Just saved your feed in my reader, have a nice day :)

You should try George R. R. Martin's Fire and Ice ...

2006-09-06T11:03:00.000-07:00

You should try George R. R. Martin's Fire and Ice series.